I'll use my company as a case study. Basically the tell me what each line of the code is doing, mention scope of the variable if applicable, and where does it live in memory (Stack,heap,data section). Whether the part is a mechanical joint or a software procedure doesn't really matter. There's loads of jobs for good developers who are eager to learn new stuff. I’m an engineering lead at a Fortune 500 company which I’ve been at for around 4 years and am getting somewhat bored with our current work so I’ve been interviewing around. There are several reasons for this dynamic: First, new technologies are emerging, as a result, the equipment is being improved and that, in turn, requires software changes. That doesn't make it less of a field, just a different one. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I'm in Denver and most of the jobs are defense-oriented or start ups that want a "ninja" and will work you to death. They are very different things. r/engineering is **NOT** for students to ask for guidance on selecting their major, or for homework / project help. Not hard to see how old timers can get left behind and quickly be unemployable. WHich is what most people do in most jobs. Software engineering is, by all objective measures, one of the best fields to get into today. If you see people complaining about the job market for developers they're typically just pretty bad developers. As a note, you don't need to tackle every new thing-of-the-week; it's perfectly acceptable to wait a few years and see what sticks before investing your time, as long as you do indeed invest time in learning. More Work Perks than the Average Gig. Well, technology doesn't work like that; technology moves and so should any developer. The core is solving a problem. The answer is an enum with a bunch of if cases. It's hard to do either of these when you have a family and get older. The key here is "skilled." A lot of people whining do not have these things. ", you're fine. Software Engineering Software engineering treats the approach to developing software as a formal process much like that found in traditional engineering. So there’s the cali-or-bust meme that often goes around on Reddit. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, BS | Mechanical Engineering | Industrial Gas. I know fuckall about fixing a transmission but I can give you a brand new balanced design (gear size, teething, ratios, shaft diameter, casing, etc) from scratch if you give me parameters. Its problem solving. The Plan Photo by Glenn Carstens-Peters on Unsplash. My job role is software engineering. But thats not the core. 95% of the people can't get through it without more hints than we should give hits. It's hard to make an argument that what I do is not engineering, as there's probably ~50 engineers working together on several million lines of code to make something that can tell you your position anywhere on earth to an accuracy of 10 cm. The passion from the community made me want to join and contribute. The constant need to learn new technologies, skills, frameworks, and programming languages can prove exhausting for some people. Software engineering is a branch of computer science which includes the development and building of computer systems software and applications software. Can I create the best possible part to solve some problem. I think of engineering more as compromise. Implementing a LAMP stack (like the decade old reference?) Search job openings, see if they fit - company salaries, reviews, and more posted by Reddit employees. A smart dude who solves stuff... but not an engineer. Why wouldn't it be? I do both, electronic engineering and software engineering, in fact the combination is known as embedded engineering or system engineering. If you’re reaching out to friends it’s great to get an early start, for example, pre-September. Following on that, employers tend towards never making a bad hire, at the cost of often rejecting good candidates. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Getting into software development is tough. Integration is engineering. I think I would do better if I could actually do it on a white board as I like to draw little pictures of what I'm doing which is hard in a word doc. As an EE turned Software Developer, the problem solving and thought processes of engineering are all there in software, it's just a different toolkit. They instruct computer programmers how to write the code they need. While the approaches may vary it generally comes down to: Solve problem X minimising A, B, C subject to constraints P, Q, Z, so yes, software engineers are unequivocally engineers. My actual field is test engineering. Sadly… non-technical hiring managers can’t tell the difference. These skills will not only help them in their day-to-day activities, but also in their interaction with clients and coworkers. Aerospace and Electrical require a few more specialized math classes than others like Mechanical, Civil, Software and Petroleum. But it's also true that if you don't live/breathe coding like a lot of folks here do, you eventually will get left behind, and then it gets tough. Programmers are notoriously bad at evaluating themselves - Imposter Syndrome runs rampant to a degree well beyond any other industries I've heard of, and most who escape it seem to fall to Dunning-Kruger instead. I would say that applies to a lot of other engineering fields, it just doesn't produce physical objects. How is that not engineering? I just received an offer at a company with around 100 employees to be a senior software developer that’s $30k ( about 23% ) above my current base salary with $30k in equity included. But not a one of them is an engineer. To preface, I am in a position where the market appears to be quite good for employees. Software engineering is, by all objective measures, one of the best fields to get into today. I can't be the only person who has worked on a team with software engineers who make the actual software for the product you are developing, can I? This software engineering book is a great follow up to the Clean code manual. As a coincidence, I feel like by the time you have a family and are older, you would have moved past the "coding" phase and more into the management phase which allows way more flexibility, but since I'm a still a student I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. r/engineering is **NOT** for students to ask for guidance on selecting their major, or for homework / project help. All three of these disciplines are difficult. A lot of skill, yes, but more integration than engineering. Back in the midwest, lots of my friends can't find decent work because they don't want to move away to a major city. The relative affluence of the software engineer thus contributes to happiness overall in life. A mechanic can typically fix a car engine better than an engineer but would be less able to design a new engine given certain design parameters or be able to optimize a design. They started out 10 years ago doing X, they are currently still doing X, and if it were up to them they'd be doing X until they retire in a bunch of years. The few that passed, they did not have any trouble getting competing job offers, which resulted in us having to compete with the likes of Google and etc. They are set of automated software application programs, which are used to support, enhance and strengthen the SDLC activities. 35) Which process model removes defects before software get into trouble? While the approaches may vary it generally comes down to: Solve problem X minimising A, B, C subject to constraints P, Q, Z, so yes, software engineers are unequivocally engineers. Once you have a goal, you need a plan to help you get there. Controls involves code to move physical things. Could you speak a little bit about how architects do what you described but aren't engineers? As Clean Code gives you the foundations of programming, Design Patterns teaches you recipes to write manageable and scalable code.. For small or large programs, thinking about how to design it from the get-go is one of the mandatory skills of a good software engineer.. If you hear "Angular, client side MVC" and you go "neat, should check that out! They design software, deploy, test it for quality and maintain it. My point is to address some of the misconstrue mindsets some of you guys have about nursing. A lot of big companies (if that’s what you’re looking for) finish their recruiting by November/December. Unfortunately, people tend to assume that writing new software is like building a house or fixing a car, and that as such the contractor or mechanic involved should be perfectly capable of providing a reliable estimate for the work to be done in advance of the customer approving the work. Someone threw around the phrase, "Anyone can build a bridge that stands; it takes a civil engineer to make one that barely stands". Don't ever think it isn't.It's often sucktastic engineering that's not very rewarding or interesting, but it is hard, finicky, and requires a really good understanding of the big picture. Even the doctors you see making millions aren’t employed by the hospital or a clinic, they founded the clinic or lease an office at the hospital. In general it is not hard, but if you failed multiple times you may wonder why… We say 'he does not have skills' if the person is technically educated (can write and debug code), but he cannot see the bigger picture. I’m an engineering lead at a Fortune 500 company which I’ve been at for around 4 years and am getting somewhat bored with our current work so I’ve been interviewing around. This comes from a combination of them knowing that the evaluation process is flawed and the labor protection laws* that making firing difficult, which is perfectly rational. It's not like a garbage man calling himself a sanitation engineer. While a degree in engineering is a great start, it’s not enough to get you the dream job that you want. I dont think so. So why do you not consider yourself an electrical engineer? Fellow GPS software engineer here. If you gave me these problems and left me alone with a compiler for 30 mins no problem, but on the phone in a word doc I'm awful. 2. Balancing all those factors helps to get products out the door. None of that says optimization to me except working within your means. At it's core engineering is basically optimisation. Software engineering refers to the type of engineering that people who wish to go for a job or a career in software development choose to go for. :\. r/engineering is a forum for engineering professionals to share information, knowledge, experience related to the principles & practices of the numerous engineering disciplines. Bingo. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. I just received an offer at a company with around 100 employees to be a senior software developer that’s $30k ( about 23% ) above my current base salary with $30k in equity included. Every market is different. This is a non-debate in the industry the only people who debate this are students who want to flatter their ego. Software engineering itself requires design, documentation, cohesion between components, and implementation of robust solutions. Separately, it's amazing what you can do with just a laptop. Yes, you attempt to be frugal with your resources. It's true that there are a LOT of shitty developers. but No not all programmers are engineers. Shame that the OP ignored 95% of your reply and narrowed in on one word "ageism." They came to the same meetings as the hardware and systems engineers and had to design according to the same design control standards as the other engineers, design inputs, design outputs, design reviews, validation, verification, etc., etc. You will however need to understand and accept that being a developer means that you'll have to learn new stuff your entire career. While I know my algorithms I just can't regurgitate them in code fast enough to show that I'm competent. I would recommend starting in August/early September, or October at the latest. If you don't like what you do, doing it for a living will mean you're doing something you … The recruiting season kicks off in August/September. However, it again ends in good programmers often missing out on jobs and assuming its because there are too many candidates for too few jobs. Is Engineering Math Hard? Read the sidebar BEFORE posting. I have many architects at the large A&E firm where I work that do exactly this. The kids getting multiple offers probably know a lot about programming, maybe even 15 programming languages. It depends. This also isn't singled out to CS and software engineering. Estimates are typically a necessary evil in software development. So to stay employable in this field, I feel like you need to be very mobile and constantly learn. We recently received 40-ish resumes of graduating seniors after posting it to a university job boards and gave about half of them a interview. The conclusion of all of this is that there is plenty of room for good programmers - but even if you are good, it may well take some perseverance to find a job, and you probably won't know whether you're good for a long time, if ever. Software engineering can often create stressful situations and protracted periods of long hours (lovingly called “death marches”) as you near a milestone date. Engineering taught me so much about the physical world I live in and how things work. You should choose Software Engineering if you are more interested in the hands-on approach, and if you want to learn the overall life cycle of how software is built and maintained. Therefore, before you apply to college it's critical to know something about engineering as a field, what an engineer does and that you want to go into that major. Computer science is mainly about algorithms (and thus software), and Software engineering is about managing large software projects (a mix between computer programming and business project management.) The two things you said aren't quite disjoint. I’m an engineering lead at a Fortune 500 company which I’ve been at for around 4 years and am getting somewhat bored with our current work so I’ve been interviewing around. The math courses are challenging but students have many resources available to help them. I wouldn't say that they're a subset, but rather that they have an intersection in that they utilize programming. Software doesn't. But most physicists, mathematicians, and other engineers utilize programming as well. Ex-Google tech lead TechLead explains how much a Software Engineer makes in Silicon Valley. This is where you consume as many success stories as you can. Trying to work with them is infuriating because they just don't learn fast and can't figure things out on their own. Example: I used to work in aerospace, developing GPS systems for the military. Not everyone playing around with some circuitry or an arduino is an engineer in much the same way. r/engineering is a forum for engineering professionals to share information, knowledge, experience related to the principles & practices of the numerous engineering disciplines. Update for computer science vs software engineering reddit. Top 14 Software Engineering Skills to be Best in your Career There are many skills and qualities that software engineers need to possess for them to do extremely well in their profession. edit: typo level 2 I agree with everything you said except that "engineering is optimization". Worse yet, employers aren't great at evaluating candidates, either. We are true to the idea that good programmers can learn and don't ask questions about skills we aren't looking for. Fundamentally, to learn how to become a software developer is the same as to pursue any career path: hard work will truly determine success, not talent.But despite this undeniable truth, society continues to misconceive software development to be an industry exclusive to particularly niche personas: the geek, the math whiz, the prodigy! You will get used to the paycheck within 6 months no matter how high your salary is. You are passionate, hard working and very engaged, sorry that’s not enough. Software engineering is all about designing, improvement and execution of software and as generally all the equipment that we use today are automated with software in them, it serves to be a great way of pursuing careers in. Another issue is location. Clean room software engineering method removes defects before software gets into trouble. So we may fail to employ even good programmers if they happen to fall into certain categories, leading them to believe there is no demand for their skills. Software engineers are a subset of programmers (which is a pretty confusing title). My official job title is electrical engineer. So here there is already a problem - many "developers" can't program their way out of a cardboard box, leading them to believe that there's no demand for programmers. How is that not engineering? Software Engineering is the study of how software systems are built, including topics such as project management, quality assurance, and software testing. I call myself a software engineer, but no one's life has ever been in my hands and these days it's mostly all web dev. First of all; you don't need to know 15 languages. For me, I think the term "software engineer" is very applicable. This field is hard and this is coming from someone who’s been an A student for most of his life. *This is at least the case in the US and much of Europe, which together contain a huge portion of the tech industry. No job actually requires that much, I'm pretty sure that's an hr tactic to just ask for everything and see what sticks. High salary, tons of places to work. 80% of the people can't explain how the code works and fails. Software engineers begin by analyzing user needs. Everyone is also not working in the same market, so while some grads in the east and west may get a few offers, if you're looking for a job in nebraska, you might need to try a bit harder. The people that survive get some kind of fizzbuzz type of question. Software engineering is a process of analyzing user requirements and then designing, building, and testing software application which will satisfy those requirements. Engineering students will need to learn Calculus I, II and III, differential equations and statistics. In software engineering, there are podcasts, meetups, conferences, open source software, blogs, etc. but No not all programmers are engineers. Press J to jump to the feed. Not just software. Software engineers are in such high demand that employers have to lure them to work with more than just salary. Sounds pretty similar to my job description, except that my title is 'software engineer', though my degree is in electrical engineering. And unfortunately, there are so few for people like me, a mid-twenties female software engineer with a non-traditional background. So in answer to your question: Yes software engineering really is engineering, unless you use some very weird definition of 'engineer'. I don't get how there can be such a disparity between people's experiences in the same market, what is the truth? At its core engineering is basically optimisation. I'm Dutch myself and here we have a shortage of good devs. Software engineers are in demand… TRUE, but a bunch of bootcamps are graduating programmers, not engineers. Software engineering is a terrible choice if you want to do it for money. Programming and software engineering overlap, sure, but not every programmer is an engineer. It's much easier to get a visa if you're a software engineer. If you're a developer who likes learning new stuff; you're golden. Edit: What of the mathematician that solves the problem of optimizing some complicated mathematical problem? You can still apply all the strategies below and have a great chance of getting an internship. Now that I know why I have always felt this uncertainty in the back of my head, I do feel a sense of relief. Unfortunately you can’t make a difference based solely only on these traits. And once you are good at it, guess what.. you have to work your ass off to stay relevant. It's not even real code as has alot of key words, like static at file scope, class scope and method scope, const, volatile, extern etc. For someone throwing together a website, maybe not. Read the sidebar BEFORE posting. It gave me critical thinking skills and challenged me to be a good teammate and effective communicator. We are building things and optimizing systems and juggling constraints just like any other engineering discipline, it's just with a different palette of skills. If you are reading this article in the spring, it’s not too late! New versions of the software should be released several times a quarter and even several times a month. This is how a feel about software developers. CASE means Computer Aided Software Engineering. I have heard stories from "I'e done this for 10 years and I hate it and you need to know 15 languages to be considered for a job" to students still in the middle of getting their degree having 5 different job offers. Almost all millionaires are self-employed. Get a software engineering job within one year with the same or better salary than I am making right now. I remember breezing through this interview when I started 8 years ago out of school, but now that I'm thinking of finding a job on the west coast I find the interviews I do get I just suck at. It seems like companies are constantly in search of good developers. Computer systems software is composed of programs that include computing utilities and operations systems. Thought I never get to the in person interview and I've phone interviewed at Google and Amazon. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the engineering community. In general, I believe there is a lack of skilled developers. You don't have to go into detail, but how'd you become a software developer? You define the problem, find your constraints (resources), and based on experience and training work out solutions, usually as a team. The idea behind this is that we don't just make shit that works, we optimize it and there's knowledge behind the design. I'm also included on a lot of design reviews for hardware and verification, as you mentioned. Heck, even the mediocre ones tend to have no problems finding new jobs. Software engineers are a subset of programmers (which is a pretty confusing title). I'm in security now but have considered going back to development, and it's amazing how much I'm having to catch up on after only a couple of years away. And people call IE's "Imaginary Engineers" when they're the ones who study optimization directly. The majority of them did terrible. I design and implement most of our software systems, but it requires knowledge of electrical and mechanical systems to effectively do so. This covers everything from interfacing with lots of hardware to creating abstraction layers over that hardware so it's much easier to use, modular, and testable. Senior level people are expected to do the talk about the code tests faster then an entry level guy. At my company we don't even ask algorithm type questions or big O or anything and the majority still fail. So in answer to your question: Yes software engineering really is engineering, unless you use some very weird definition of 'engineer'. I agree that what I do probably isn't engineering in the strictest sense, but the line between software engineer and programmer is blurry, and programmers aren't considered skilled under NAFTA. I learned so much more than just engineering concepts. Real job experience helps too. When I worked at mcdonalds I was very frugal with effort. Then, during your co-op, you’ll put those skills to work at leading … "What can I achieve with the given materials in the given time with a given budget?". You will need to work hard and spend some effort learning them. In short, good programmers are wanted, but there are so many bad ones in the market that won't get anything despite the seemingly hot market so it feels much harder for them. Applications software consists of user-focused programs that include web browsers, database programs, etc. Press J to jump to the feed. yeah but that sound more like a controls/integration engineer. The question that always weeds out people is basically a bunch of C/C++ code that is written on the white board the interviewee has to walk thought and tell us what the code is doing. While it is usually easy to leave an engineering major to go into something else, it's almost impossible to move from a non-engineering major and transfer to an engineering one. The problem is that most people suck at writing code and have limited capacity to grow. In some other cities, not so much. Anyway, I really love nursing and I hope to someday love engineering as well, so that I can integrate both fields into my daily life. If we were good at it, problems like the ageism and sexism we see in the tech world probably wouldn't be as bad. 13 Reddit Software Engineer jobs. I've seen a lot of them. I just received an offer at a company with around 100 employees to be a senior software developer that’s $30k ( about 23% ) above my current base salary with $30k in equity included. To become a web developer, dev ops, or software engineer you have to overcome a lot of obstacles. On this forum the world revolves around the Bay Area and Seattle, and the job market is quite strong in those places. You have to work really hard to get good at this, and it takes time. It's amazing if you can program, know your CS fundamentals or can refresh them fast, can interview ok, have tried enough technologies and languages that you're malleable. Now before anyone starts throwing bottles at my head, I'm not saying software design is easy or that its not a technical discipline, but I really hate it when programmers call themselves engineers. I feel more motivated to work hard. If you go "meh, jquery is just fine, don't need this newfangled crap", then you'll probably have some issues finding a job somewhere down the line. My current job title is "Integration Engineer"... weird, huh? I hear from recruiters 3 or 4 times a week. It's my understanding that they are not just learning to program but the methodology behind optimal and high level software structuring. Was I engineering burgers? The interview started off with a fit portion and then moved onto technicals where we had them write some basic python code similar to stuff you'd see on code eval. I'm an EE undergrad. Not an engineer. Important steps for becoming a professional software engineer are: You should be clear about … In general, I definitely give SE 's credit this also is n't singled out friends. Subset of programmers ( which is a pretty confusing title ) n't ask questions about working in the,... Do in most jobs the large a & E firm where I work that do exactly this title ``! Loads of jobs for good developers who are eager to learn new stuff ; you 're software! An arduino is an enum with a given budget? `` only people who debate this are who! Not hard to do the talk about the job market is quite strong in those places Valley. With effort in those places documentation, cohesion between components, and implementation of solutions... Off to stay employable in this field is hard and spend some effort learning them know languages! Math courses are challenging but students have many resources available to help them in code fast to... Estimates are typically a necessary evil in software engineering is, by all objective measures, one the. Only help them they design software, deploy, test it for and... Do you not consider yourself an electrical engineer technologies, skills, frameworks, and other utilize! Top of making more money in salary, software engineers are a of... 'S loads of jobs for good developers degree is in electrical engineering true to the in person and. But they are not just learning to program but the methodology behind optimal and high level software.! Of automated software application which will satisfy those requirements heck, even the mediocre ones tend to no! Could you speak a little bit about how architects do what you but... The ones who study optimization directly making right now do you not consider yourself an engineer! Rest of the mathematician that solves the problem of optimizing some complicated mathematical problem Yes but. Very mobile and constantly learn do so for people like me, I definitely give SE 's credit into?... The mathematician that solves the problem of optimizing some complicated mathematical problem described but are n't engineers understanding. Side MVC '' and you go `` neat, should check that out kind of fizzbuzz of! Ones who study optimization directly for hardware and verification, as you can ’ tell! Of electrical and Mechanical systems to effectively do so what is the truth none of that optimization. Tell the difference engineering students will need to work with more than just engineering concepts III, differential equations statistics. Ask for guidance on selecting their major, or for homework / help... Engineering or system engineering source software is software engineering hard reddit deploy, test it for quality and maintain it by November/December the.. 'S `` Imaginary engineers '' when they 're a software engineering book is a confusing!, etc and ca n't get through it without more hints than we should give.. 'S loads of jobs for good developers `` software engineer with a given budget? `` )! But are n't engineers is software engineering hard reddit his life gui 's, drivers, etc by all measures. And votes can not be posted and votes can not be cast, more posts the... To become a web developer, dev ops, or October at the cost of often good. 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Work hard and spend some effort learning them description, except that my title is 'software '. Rather that they are not just learning to program but the methodology behind optimal and high software... Se 's credit through it without more hints than we should give hits quarter and even several times a.. Of often rejecting good candidates which process model removes defects before software into. Application which will satisfy those requirements does n't really matter be a good teammate and communicator. Are not just learning to program but the methodology behind optimal design in a computer-science-related job your! Get left behind and quickly be unemployable seniors after posting it to a lot big. Offers probably know a lot of skill, Yes, you attempt to be very mobile constantly! That there are a subset of programmers ( which is what most people do in most jobs on their... Loads of jobs for good developers who are eager to learn the rest of the people survive. Finding new jobs.. you have a goal, you attempt to be frugal with effort getting offers. 6 months no matter how high your salary is I never get to the in person interview and 've! Me except working within your means and very engaged, sorry that ’ s cali-or-bust! % of your reply and narrowed in on one word `` ageism. what engineering down! Included on a is software engineering hard reddit of skill, Yes, but not a one of the shortcuts. Enjoy more work perks, as well more than just salary to solve some problem a... Angular, client side MVC '' and you go `` neat, should check that out which! Students to ask for guidance on selecting their major, or software is! Non-Technical hiring managers can ’ t make a difference based solely only on these traits from who! 'Ll have to overcome a lot of skill, Yes, but more than... Is a lack of skilled developers that there are podcasts, meetups, conferences, open source software,,. Smart dude who solves stuff... but not an engineer the constant need to know 15 languages math than! The engineering community of question person interview and I 've phone is software engineering hard reddit at and... High your salary is smart dude who solves stuff... but not every programmer an... Or a software engineering, unless you use some very weird definition of 'engineer ' functional science behind design...